Papaye n° 3
EL HADJ MBAYE BASSINE DIENG, Director of the ethnographic and historical patrimony : “The museums have recently been introduced in our civilizations”
The
director’s office of ethnographic and historical patrimony gives information
on the mindset of the lace’s master : canvas, carvings, in one word, a whole
statuary and plastic decoration. El Hadj Mbaye Bassine Dieng is since 1990
director of the ethnographic and historical patrimony of Senegal. His department,
depending on the Ministry of Culture, is in charge of four sections. The sites
and monuments, oral traditions, museums and the state’s private artistic
field. Trained as a cultural adviser, Mr. Dieng
is addressing in this interview, the issues related to the historical and
ethnographic patrimony, specially Senegalese museums.
Mbaye Diop
What
does the notion of historical and ethnographic patrimony match up with ?
It’s
simply the cultural patrimony. Patrimony is legacy, all that we received from
the past generations. But also, all that we are creating. Therefore it is
testimony, Man’s creativity spirit. Patrimony is thus now more dynamic and
does not only represent legacy. It is even applied to industrial patrimony. All
these factories that don’t function any more but which constitute testimony of
a given period in the evolution of sciences and technology. What is staying in
our mind as patrimony, will contribute the most to promote human dimension.
What
does historical and ethnographic patrimony consist of ?
In
a very classical way , we can make the distinction between : tangible patrimony
and intangible patrimony. In other words it’s material, physical patrimony and
non-material, non-physical patrimony. Within the patterns of material patrimony,
we have historical sires and monuments. Sites are places which bear witness to
happy and unhappy past even. The monuments are witness edifices with
architectural value. There are also the craft work, I mean all that we can find
in museums like pieces coming from the archeological field, from excavations
which enable to reveal certain materials.
How
this patrimony is acquired ?
Patrimony
is transmitted directly or indirectly. For the direct way, we can take the
example of the colonial architecture which is the most recent patrimony. It was
bequeathed to the state’s institutions by the colonial administration, as it
was the case in Goree, Rufisque, Dakar, Saint-Louis ; this colonial architecture
belonged to families who bequeathed it to the following generations. We have
also the indirect discovering mode which encompasses any patrimony, buried or
scattered through the country, population and searchers disclose.
Do
you sometime purchase items ?
What
we acquire for museums is mainly purchased from the holders. In case of ancient
pieces held by a third party, we can buy them if the holder is willing to sell.
Museum can acquire piece through deposit. Some people are willing to deposit
their family objects they aren’t ready to give up or sell ; they prefer to put
them at the community’s disposal. But this can be done by discovery.
What
is then the place of museum in ethnographic historical patrimony ?
Museums
have an important place. This place isn’t central but is rather very important
; because museums are spaces dedicated at the same time to exhibition, but
mainly to education. In Western conception, a museum is a place where is
exhibited objects which reveal certain facts of civilization and equally the
existence of the description of these objects and their importance in the life
of people who produced them. Then, conserving these objects is a way of
conserving testimony on the life of these people ;
of perpetuating it and of transmitting it from generation to generation.
To prevent Man from saying he is the first settler. Other men came,
before Man of the twenty and twenty first century, and created something.
And this consecration, enable us to know (when we do research)the previous
dental condition ; or objects exhibited can reveal certain facts of civilization,
of mind, the degree of creativity, of religion etc. Thus, these objects of study
enable us to inform population on their past. Then, the museum allows to show
and to teach because of the fact that it’s the place where knowledge is
transmitted. Following the interactive methods, museums are more are more places
where exchange, communication on important issues concerning cultural patrimony
can held.
But
it looks as if the public doesn’t perceive the importance of museums ?
Yes
!this is absolutely natural, owing to the fact that museum has recently been
introduced in our civilization. We have the chance to possess IFAN Cheikh Anta
Diop. But if we consider that IFAN was only created in the thirties, we will
remark that it’s a recent realization. What does this mean ? This means that
museum is a place for people of a certain level of education. Because of the
nature of objects exhibited, it requires a certain level of education to be able
to contemplate usefully or to appreciate from the signpost the importance or the
power of what is exhibited. And this is the first pattern restrictive to the
public, the fact that the museum is a closed place is another pattern, because
in our civilizations closed places are not well frequented. Does this mean that
museums should be more or less opened in space including other activities ?
Niamey museum’s success is an example to followed. But the creation of this
kind of museum a hue amount of money. And we are in somewhat difficult
situations to think of multiplying these kinds of creations.
Museum
being thus enable to give rise to people’s passion, what is to be done to get
them out of their lethargy ?
What
should we do ? Raise the awareness school and university population in order to
attract them to museums, and this should be done in accordance with teaching
system. This is the first step we are with difficulty, and laboriously to cross.
We are directing awareness to teachers. But if many teachers bring their
students to Goree, a few of them think of bringing them to indoor museums...
Why
specially students ?
Because
they represent an important target which is able to catch the bug by getting
inside a museum and gains reasons to come back and will later incite his
children to do the same thing. It’s only by these ways that we are going , in
the next decades, to have an acceptable attendance to museums
as it’s the case in European
museums where promotion has a visible effect.
Aren’t
our museum denying development. There is neither video, nor Internet site inside
museums in this time of NTICs ?
This
absence in this era of NTICs shouldn’t be considered as a denial. Today it’s
difficult to conceive life without them. If we have a meaningful contribution,
things will be better. In many
European museums, the interactive methods are introduced. Here the problem is
neither one of denial, nor one of means, people are thinking about solutions.
Because a resumption of the organization is necessary. We are also facing a
problem of space. The collections are shown in such a way that if the
organization isn’t completely changed, or if the space is extended, it won’t
be easy to include these equipment. While museums as once said are the places
where the most performed didactic methods must be used. And we will more and
more see these kinds of methods emerge. Then, does this mean that we must take
IFAN museums’ collections to display them overnight on video or on T.V. ? I
don’t think so. We should think of an organization which not forget the
audiovisual aspect. This aspect should be included in a harmonious ordering. We
don’t deny it, we can really get to that point. At the House of Slaves for
instance, we are planning an exhibition including the audiovisual aspect ; in
this project we are working with
the British Council and the Liverpool museum which has a section on slavery.
Isn’t
there an urgency in as much as tourists are mainly visitors who don’t
understand the meaning of objects simply exhibited ?
Yes,
it’s an urgency, an absolute urgency. We are looking on it, and it has
somewhat advanced. We are just facing a problem of adjustment. We are for sure
aware of the urgencies, We know that an outsider museum visitor feels the lack
of audiovisual contribution when
he comes in our country. This hindrance is at the center of our pre-occupations.
How
many museums are there in Senegal ?
In
Senegal we have two kinds of museums : public and private museums. In Dakar, we
have IFAN museums, in Goree we have La Maison des Esclaves, Le Musee de la Mer,
Le Musee Historique, in Thies, Tamba and Saint-Louis exist museums also. In
total we have seven public museums. Concerning the private museums, we don’t
have any precise figure. Some of them aren’t declared. Some people keep in
their house embryonic samples simply because they want to decorate their space
with patterns of the patrimony.
We
have also museums opened to the audience like Boribana at Yoff, the museum of
woman Henriette Bathily at Goree, Keur Diogoye museum in Joal.
How
long will the Dynamic Museum’s building be used by the Court of Cassation ?
When is the Ministry of culture going to get it back ?
The
problem of the Dynamic Museum was solved by the former president(ABDOU DIOUF)
who decided that the museum would be given back to the Ministry of Culture when
the new Law Court under construction is finished. This option has been confirmed
by the new government, we have their promise. The option taken was to make the
museum get back to its previous vocation, because it was designed to hold great
national and international exhibitions of high level and this Dynamic Museum’s
return to culture matches with the president’s will( Abdoulaye Wade) to give
to Dakar city again its vocation of a cultural meeting place of prime
importance.